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An atempt to make a proto tank

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Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1413	Posted - 2013.09.30 20:30:00 - [1] - Quote A while ago IWS said proto tanks are a bad idea because the max amount slots per high/low is 5 each, and every race would basically have the same tank. Not to mention the tanks would suck balls, not getting their primary tanking improved. I agree, for those reasons. Instead of relying on slots, we can give them other bonuses and still make them balanced for a proto tank. In chromosome, we were given advanced tanks called the Sagaris (Caldari) and the Surya (Gallente). They were faster, had more fitting (CPU/PG), slightly more base HP and had an additional slot on the opposite tanking gender (i.e, Caldari gains an additional low slot, vice versa). It was simple stat boosts that made the Sagaris and Surya worth using and still balanced. Yes, a single person with proto AV would still smack them around but they couldent be soloed in a single clip of anything, they were able to escape a single person preforming the proto AV and die miserably to 2 proto AV users, as they should. Proto should always annihilate standard, and even still best ADV, just not as hardcore. Chromosome tanking was a perfect balance of this. A proto tank can be scaled in the same manner, just give it more stats and another slots. At the time, the base HP of the maintank of the (standard) gunnlogi/madrugar was 2000 HP and the (adv) sagaris/surya had 3200. Perhaps proto can have 4500-5000 base HP main tank? (Per scale with 1.6 changes). The natural shield regen was also increased, so do the same for the proto tanks. From there, increase the speed from the ADV tank to make it fit for proto. The additional slots can be given or held, it doesent really matter much. Skills (numbers used are place holders) The Sagaris/Surya were called Marauder tanks, and there was a marauder skill. At the time, it gave a 5% bonus to missile/blaster damage per level. The bonus does different things per race, obviously, but it could do more than simply buff damage. They could increase base speed 10% per level (minmitar), 33% increase to natural shield regen per level natural shield regen (caldari), 10% increase to base HP per level (gallentee) or give a host of small bonuses like 5% increase speed + 15% increase to natural shield regen +5 increase base to HP (all per level) for Ammar tanks. Perhaps these listed bonues combined with other bonuses per level? This way, the skills for a proto tank are unique for each race and usefull, but still balanced. ^^ these skills would have to be applied to all 3 levels of the tanks (std, adv, proto) just like they are for dropsuits, so the proto tank is actually a proto tank and not say a marauder or enforcer tank. Proto marauder? proto enforcer? Proto logi tank? They do different things. so it would be like standard gunlogi/madrugar, adv gunlogi 2/madrugar 2, proto gunlogi 3/madrugar 3. Exactly like dropsuits, these are the "basic suits" of tanks. So basically, dont rely on slots to make a proto tank. Give each tank tier bonuses to make them better than the tier below it and keep these bonuses race specific to make all the tanks unique and non copyable or cloned by the other races. Specialty tanks -A logi Lav/dropship has built in resist and built in damage reduction with more HP. Can be done the same way for tanks. -The enforcer is supposed to be long range and weak. The skills can better reflect on this, give a 25% increase to weapon range and zoom per level and reduce its slot count and base HP, not fitting. That way it is unique, non copyable, it is a specific kind of tank. Oh, and 5% to rendering range per level? -Again, placeholders -Increase their stats as they go through the stand/adv/proto teirs, do not rely on slots, slots are too easily copied per race. What you guys think?
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1415	Posted - 2013.09.30 21:02:00 - [2] - Quote Jake Bloodworth wrote: I agree that different variations of tanks should have role specific bonuses. I like the increased range idea (won't happen because CCP rendering fiasco). However, as usual, this thread comes down to making tanks no different then dropsuits with more health and active modules. I have never understood why players believe tanks should function like giant, rolling dropsuits. The tanks of 1.6 should be given choices and role bonuses. They should complement what mercs/squads are doing. They should REQUIRE squad support to perform to the max of their abilities. Tanks are support vehicles that should function as a force multiplier when paired with a squad. They should not be squads in and of themselves. A concentrated effort of Proto AV should always be theoretically capable of downing a tank. Skill should then determine if the tanker loses his toy or not. Tanks should not function as squads. They should not be worth 2,3,4,5,6 "boots on the ground" mercs. They should be costly force multipliers that carry a large amount of risk in fielding (One thing I think CCP has right with tanks atm). There is a reason the US army's primary heavy armored platform is the Bradley fighting vehicle. Hand held AV equipment allows a poorly trained soldier to destroy millions of dollars worth of Abrams tank. This is the way it works in real life, and one of the few real life examples that should hold true in Dust. You can't fart around in a Titan in Eve online. You are vulnerable to smaller ships. You shouldn't be able to fart around in a Tank in Dust. You will, and should, be vulnerable to smaller ships...er...mercs. You want to solo in tanks? Fine, there is the redline... or, develop the skill necessary to MAKE it work in the thick of things. TLDR: Tanks are not super heavy dropsuits. PS. Nothing I am saying is meant as an insult to the OP's skill. I can only assume, based on his pedigree, that he is an excellent player. Ty sir :) i agree that they should be support, tanks shouldent run battlefeilds only contribute to the team in a way that infaintry can not: surpress and destroy infaintry. I dont think the listed ideas are made to superpower the tanks, thats what increased slots do. But at the same time i dont think there is a way to make a tank better at supporting infantry than making the tank over all better. Is there? What skill could a tank have that exclusively helps infaintry? I dont think there is one. So make the tank better so it can help the squads its with, but not to the point to were it can roll over teams by itself
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1415	Posted - 2013.09.30 21:05:00 - [3] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Buffing base stats as you progress through tiers is a very bad Idea. 1. It would further widen the rift between vets and noobs. 2. It would make running lower tier items/vehicles completely nonviable. 3. It would push pay to win, because boosters = faster SP gain = less time to progress through tiers. So? Getting SP is what this game is about! Yes, noobs should get smashed and utterly destroyed by ppl with 10x their SP count unless they have the skill and smarts to win dispite their disadvantage, and tanks are no different. Boosters support that, no one cares if their p2w or not. If anything, boosters help Noobs get SP so they can have better fits to compete. And its how teirs work, no one would ever run a basic scout, heavy, logi, assualt suit if they have a proto suit unless their trying to save money. Yes, proto should be better than tiers below it. Its how this game is intended
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1415	Posted - 2013.09.30 21:06:00 - [4] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Maybe they could have a little bit of a speed boost in their base stats? I don't know if you put that in the OP or not, I'm lazy so I didn't read the whole thing :P then dont comment! i already said that
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1415	Posted - 2013.09.30 21:07:00 - [5] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Where is this built in damage reduction stated in the descriptions? in the base stats of the LLAV. they have base resist
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1419	Posted - 2013.10.01 01:45:00 - [6] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Exmaple Core wrote: Jake Bloodworth wrote: I agree that different variations of tanks should have role specific bonuses. I like the increased range idea (won't happen because CCP rendering fiasco). However, as usual, this thread comes down to making tanks no different then dropsuits with more health and active modules. I have never understood why players believe tanks should function like giant, rolling dropsuits. The tanks of 1.6 should be given choices and role bonuses. They should complement what mercs/squads are doing. They should REQUIRE squad support to perform to the max of their abilities. Tanks are support vehicles that should function as a force multiplier when paired with a squad. They should not be squads in and of themselves. A concentrated effort of Proto AV should always be theoretically capable of downing a tank. Skill should then determine if the tanker loses his toy or not. Tanks should not function as squads. They should not be worth 2,3,4,5,6 "boots on the ground" mercs. They should be costly force multipliers that carry a large amount of risk in fielding (One thing I think CCP has right with tanks atm). There is a reason the US army's primary heavy armored platform is the Bradley fighting vehicle. Hand held AV equipment allows a poorly trained soldier to destroy millions of dollars worth of Abrams tank. This is the way it works in real life, and one of the few real life examples that should hold true in Dust. You can't fart around in a Titan in Eve online. You are vulnerable to smaller ships. You shouldn't be able to fart around in a Tank in Dust. You will, and should, be vulnerable to smaller ships...er...mercs. You want to solo in tanks? Fine, there is the redline... or, develop the skill necessary to MAKE it work in the thick of things. TLDR: Tanks are not super heavy dropsuits. PS. Nothing I am saying is meant as an insult to the OP's skill. I can only assume, based on his pedigree, that he is an excellent player. Ty sir :) i agree that they should be support, tanks shouldent run battlefeilds only contribute to the team in a way that infaintry can not: surpress and destroy infaintry. I dont think the listed ideas are made to superpower the tanks, thats what increased slots do. But at the same time i dont think there is a way to make a tank better at supporting infantry than making the tank over all better. Is there? What skill could a tank have that exclusively helps infaintry? I dont think there is one. So make the tank better so it can help the squads its with, but not to the point to were it can roll over teams by itself Maybe the tank can give a small resistance to dropsuits (5% maybe) and the skill would increase the distance so that your team doesn't have to hug your tank to benefit from it. that would be great for logi tanks, that are supposed to be extreemly weak by themselfs and support infantry in other ways than shooting infantry. But not all tanks are logi tanks
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1419	Posted - 2013.10.01 01:46:00 - [7] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Exmaple Core wrote: So? Getting SP is what this game is about! Yes, noobs should get smashed and utterly destroyed by ppl with 10x their SP count unless they have the skill and smarts to win dispite their disadvantage, and tanks are no different. The bonuses you've suggested make the SP gap ludicrously huge. A vet Caldari tank has over twice the shield regeneration with these bonuses that a noob Caldari tank does. 40% faster Minmatar tanks are insane, as are 40% tougher Gallente tanks, etc. These already very significant gaps are only widened by the passive effect of skills - at that rate, a vet Caldari tank could well have almost three times the shield regen of a noob one. As a comparison, these numbers can be attained by proto dropsuits over standard dropsuits. That would be reasonable - except with this suggestion, these numbers can be attained by standard over standard. That's a huge problem. as i stated these are place holders, it doesent have to be 40% faster, it could be 30%, 20%, 5% or anything, these are just ideas. The point is, make the tanks better in ways you do not need slots because simply adding slots do not work
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1419	Posted - 2013.10.01 01:50:00 - [8] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Master Jaraiya wrote: Buffing base stats as you progress through tiers is a very bad Idea. 1. It would further widen the rift between vets and noobs. 2. It would make running lower tier items/vehicles completely nonviable. 3. It would push pay to win, because boosters = faster SP gain = less time to progress through tiers. You can't push for tiercide on tanks if you don't want it with drop suits. The only base stats increased on Dropsuits as you move up tiers are Slots and CPU/PG which is required to fill the slots. HP, Movement/Sprint Speed, Scan precision, Scan Profile, Scan Range, Shield recharge, Armor Regen all stay the same at base level. The racial/role bonuses of some suits may modify some suits, but this is a skill, not a base stat increase and is not even close to the extent the OP is suggesting for vehicles. Actually, its not far off when you consider these are place holders, it doesent have to be the numbers i threw in there, those are just some reasonable suggestions. The point is to make the tank better without using slots, because increasing slot count is not the right way to make upper tier tanks. However, the upper tier tanks DO need to be significantly more powerful than the lower tiers, just like the dropsuits are. A standard LV1 cal suit with a standard weapon would be completely and utterly annihilated by a faction caldari LV5 proto suit with proto weapons. Unless of course, the standard suit guy uses tactics. Same for tanks!
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1419	Posted - 2013.10.01 01:53:00 - [9] - Quote daishi mk03 wrote: Why no special abilities, surya some anchor ability with highly increased armor resist and sagaris gets invisibility for some sec, breaking locked on swarms and stuff, making it mobile. mad and gunnlogi get lesser skills of those those would be a different kind of tank, but it wouldent be far fetched for a proto tank to have say a built in light rep or active resist in addition to whatever other stuff the tanker fills his slots with
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1419	Posted - 2013.10.01 01:58:00 - [10] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Exmaple Core wrote: Master Jaraiya wrote: Buffing base stats as you progress through tiers is a very bad Idea. 1. It would further widen the rift between vets and noobs. 2. It would make running lower tier items/vehicles completely nonviable. 3. It would push pay to win, because boosters = faster SP gain = less time to progress through tiers. So? Getting SP is what this game is about! Yes, noobs should get smashed and utterly destroyed by ppl with 10x their SP count unless they have the skill and smarts to win dispite their disadvantage, and tanks are no different. Boosters support that, no one cares if their p2w or not. If anything, boosters help Noobs get SP so they can have better fits to compete. And its how teirs work, no one would ever run a basic scout, heavy, logi, assualt suit if they have a proto suit unless their trying to save money. Yes, proto should be better than tiers below it. Its how this game is intended Yes, plenty of people do not want the game to be pay to win. Getting ISK is what the game is about (we are Mercenaries) not SP. If you are in it for SP, you are doing it wrong. Noobs should still be able to compete against vets, but it should not be easy. What you are suggesting would make it utterly impossible. We want new players to join, and stay with DUST 514, not to be driven away by some mouth breather behind a computer desk with a chip on his shoulder since Jr. High School. Tiers allow you to be slightly better, not all powerful gods of the battlefield. I still use standard gear in most matches I play, not because I need to save ISK, but I don't need Proto Gear to be successful in most matches. This is one of the few times were its safe to say HTFU new players, get some SP and continuing using tactics so you can catch up to those using tactics+protogear. Its how the game works, teirs make you waaaay better than those with a lower teir than you. Yeah like you said you will always have the ability to win with a lower tier but tiers have always offered a massive advantage in dust. Tanks should not be any different, a noob in a standard tank should be crushes by a proto tank without any fighting chance in hell if he doesent use tactics and teamwork to take him down. Its how tiers work

Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1419	Posted - 2013.10.01 02:17:00 - [11] - Quote Guys, remember the numbers used are placeholders!
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1421	Posted - 2013.10.01 02:55:00 - [12] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Exmaple Core wrote: A while ago IWS said proto tanks are a bad idea because the max amount slots per high/low is 5 each, and every race would basically have the same tank. Not to mention the tanks would suck balls, not getting their primary tanking improved. I agree, for those reasons. Instead of relying on slots, we can give them other bonuses and still make them balanced for a proto tank. In chromosome, we were given advanced tanks called the Sagaris (Caldari) and the Surya (Gallente). They were faster, had more fitting (CPU/PG), slightly more base HP and had an additional slot on the opposite tanking gender (i.e, Caldari gains an additional low slot, vice versa). It was simple stat boosts that made the Sagaris and Surya worth using and still balanced. Yes, a single person with proto AV would still smack them around but they couldent be soloed in a single clip of anything, they were able to escape a single person preforming the proto AV and die miserably to 2 proto AV users, as they should. Proto should always annihilate standard, and even still best ADV, just not as hardcore. Chromosome tanking was a perfect balance of this. A proto tank can be scaled in the same manner, just give it more base stats. At the time, the base HP of the tanking gender of the (standard) gunnlogi/madrugar was 2000 HP and the (adv) sagaris/surya had 3200. Perhaps proto can have 4500-5000 base HP per tank gender? (Per scale with 1.6 changes). The natural shield regen was also increased, so do the same for the proto tanks. From there, increase the speed from the ADV tank to make it fit for proto. The additional slots can be given or held, it doesent really matter much. Skills (numbers used are place holders, they can be changed) The Sagaris/Surya were called Marauder tanks, and there was a marauder skill. At the time, it gave a 5% bonus to missile/blaster damage per level. The bonus does different things per race, obviously, but it could do more than simply buff damage. They could increase base speed 10% per level (minmitar), 33% increase to natural shield regen per level natural shield regen (caldari), 10% increase to base HP per level (gallentee) or give a host of small bonuses like 5% increase speed + 15% increase to natural shield regen +5 increase base to HP (all per level) for Ammar tanks. Perhaps these listed bonues combined with other bonuses per level? This way, the skills for a proto tank are unique for each race and usefull, but still balanced. ^^ these skills would have to be applied to all 3 levels of the tanks (std, adv, proto) just like they are for dropsuits, so the proto tank is actually a proto tank and not say a marauder or enforcer tank. Proto marauder? proto enforcer? Proto logi tank? They do different things. so it would be like standard gunlogi/madrugar, adv gunlogi 2/madrugar 2, proto gunlogi 3/madrugar 3. Exactly like dropsuits, these are the "basic suits" of tanks. So basically, dont rely on slots to make a proto tank. Give each tank tier bonuses to make them better than the tier below it and keep these bonuses race specific to make all the tanks unique and non copyable or cloned by the other races. Specialty tanks -A logi Lav/dropship has built in resist and built in damage output reduction with more HP. Can be done the same way for tanks. -The enforcer is supposed to be long range and weak. The skills can better reflect on this, give a 25% increase to weapon range and zoom per level and reduce its slot count and base HP, not fitting. That way it is unique, non copyable, it is a specific kind of tank. Oh, and 5% to rendering range per level? -Again, placeholders -Increase their stats as they go through the stand/adv/proto teirs, do not rely on slots, slots are too easily copied per race. What you guys think? Sounds very good anything you would change/add?
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1423	Posted - 2013.10.01 03:29:00 - [13] - Quote GVGMODE wrote: Put back the PG/CPU increase Put back the 25% increase to shields or amor skills Passive resists based on their designated race Slot increase is a must :) did you read the OP? going to at least give reasoning?
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1423	Posted - 2013.10.01 03:51:00 - [14] - Quote GVGMODE wrote: Exmaple Core wrote: GVGMODE wrote: Put back the PG/CPU increase Put back the 25% increase to shields or amor skills Passive resists based on their designated race Slot increase is a must :) did you read the OP? going to at least give reasoning? Yea read the OP. Slot increase will be consistent with CCP's idea to make the power be on the modules and skill points rather than in the raw vehicle, which allows them to be vulnerable during cooldown. Obviously not increasing the opposite type of tanking slots, instead of an advanced armor tank having 3/5 make it 2/6 Passive resist is important at least by a small % more per level, because of damage mods and natural additional damage The % increase to EHP would not be as op as an increase in the base ehp I'm lazy :( i compelty agree, it would be awsome for the tanks to level like dropsuits but IWS made a long thread how it is not possible, the programming simply wont allow anything to have more than 5 slots max. So we gotta make ADV and proto vehicals in other means, but yeah i agree with your other ideas
Exmaple Core Ancient Exiles 1432	Posted - 2013.10.01 06:00:00 - [15] - Quote The legend345 wrote: PERFECT!!!! :O <3 anything youd add?